The “Satan Wrote the Bible” Essay

Fundamentalist Jews, Christians and Muslims and many others of those faiths believe in personifications of good and evil–God and Satan. These two forces are essentially equal in powers with one exception. God was able to create the life we know and all we perceive with our senses within this life while Satan was not. Satan was jealous of creation and set about to destroy it.

They further believe that God caused the writing of The Bible, that it is his word. However, Satan could just as easily have been the “author”. It is interesting that those who believe in a Satan have not considered the thought that he may have been responsible for The Bible. They believe he has all the qualifications necessary to do so and many of them believe that Satan works through religions. I have been told by several believers that Satan does his best work through religions, the religions of others, of course.

Among the followers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam who believe there is a Satan or Devil there is general agreement that:

  • Satan is not stupid, in fact he is extremely clever;
  • Satan can influence people;
  • Satan can influence the writing of books;
  • Satan can influence the way people act;
  • Satan has been around since before the creation of the world;
  • Satan’s mission is to lead us away from the work of God;
  • Satan can not create a person, plant or anything in nature.

Consider the possibility that the Bible was written under the influence of Satan rather than God. Since we are playing with the notion that one of them influenced the stories of the Bible the exercise should begin before the Bible, before Genesis.

There were these two guys, angels, gods, a god and an angel, whatever. Both very bright. God figured out how to create life. He created this thing which we perceive with our senses as our life. We see with eyes given us by the creator. We hear with eardrums given us by the creator. We smell and taste and feel with senses given us by the creator. When our eyes see a beautiful animal or plant or geological wonder we are seeing part of the creation. When we enjoy a beautiful voice, a bird’s song or the crash of waves against the shore we are enjoying sounds provided by the creator. The smell of a flower, the taste of fresh fruit, the feel of another’s body against ours are all part of this creation which we are able to enjoy through our senses, our, according to the believers, God-given senses.

Satan was unable to create life. Even today he can’t create life. He can’t create a geological wonder or make the waves crash against the shore or give a flower a beautiful smell. He cannot make an apple or another body.

That God could and Satan was unable to duplicate the feat apparently made him jealous. Just like a couple of children playing, when one builds a tower of blocks the other has an urge to knock it down. So Satan’s mission became the destruction of God’s creation, the destruction of life as we know it.

There is the puzzle. Put yourself in Satan’s sandals. You have no powers to do anything physically. You cannot cause a flood. You cannot blow up the earth or the universe. The only thing you can do is influence people. People are not stupid. You can’t just take over one person and use him or her to preach the destruction of the earth. The rest of the people would say, “That’s an evil idea. We like life. We like this creation. We are not going to destroy it.”

What better ploy than to imitate God, to say that you are God or rather that the person you are speaking through is speaking for God. But people wouldn’t believe someone who said they were speaking for God if they were saying things that didn’t make sense from the point of view of the Creator. Satan would have to be more clever than that.

Just as we, in this mind exercise, are trying to get ourselves into Satan’s head to figure him out, Satan’s next thoughts would be to get into the heads of the people he was trying to influence. What questions might those early people have? They would probably be curious about how this life come about with the stars and earth and plants and animals? They might be wondering, “How did I, a person, come into being? My parents tell me about their parents and their parents’ parents and on and on but where did the first people come from? How did this all start?”

The people 2500 years ago believed the earth was flat and they had scant understanding of anything on it. Virtually everything was a mystery. It would not be difficult for Satan to implant an idea of a creator in their minds. He could try out several ideas in different people. He could take the ideas that gained greatest acceptance and refine them over time. The people with the most acceptable ideas would become respected in their tribe. Satan would work with them, continually refining the story but always with the purpose of ultimately destroying Creation.

The story that gained the greatest acceptance had God creating the universe in six days and then creating Adam and Eve. Chapter 2 of Genesis ends: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (Genesis 2:24, 25) That certainly sounds like something a creator would say of his or her creation.

A magician’s primary tool is misdirection–getting the audience to look at the left hand while the right does the work of deception. It would suit Satan’s purpose, while impersonating the Creator, to create in people’s minds an enemy. Most people today who believe in the notion of Satan believe that in Chapter 3 The-Bible-Satan chose the guise of a talking serpent to influence Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. A nice story to get people to focus on snakes as being evil. Snakes move strangely and there were probably some poisonous snakes about that would make it easy to imagine them to be evil.

Wouldn’t this be a good plan for someone who wanted to destroy God’s creation? He now has people believing that his words are God’s and he has people focusing on an evil force other than himself.

The following is a quote from the Mormon Bible Dictionary’s definition of Satan. “One of the major techniques of the devil is to cause human beings to think they are following God’s ways, when in reality they are deceived by the devil to follow other paths.” Can there be any better way to get people to think they are following God’s ways than to cause a book to be written that purports to be the word of God?

From the beginning of the Bible God does not come off looking all that good. He creates Adam and Eve and the first thing he tells them is that they can do anything they want to do in the Garden except eat from one tree. Anyone who has been a parent knows that the worst guidance you can give a child is to tell them not to do something. It immediately puts it in the forefront of thought. “Why can’t I do that? What will happen if I do?” Saying don’t do something gives it a mystic irresistible to most.

If God loved the people he created, why would He put the tree there in the first place? A question often asked and the religious answer given is that it is as a test. Adam and Eve failed the test and humanity has suffered ever since. If you think about it, it is hard to fault Adam and Eve. God created them in His image then gave them a directive He knew (He is always describe as knowing all.) was impossible to follow. He set them up for failure. Sorry, but God does not come out of this looking like a loving entity. Adam and Eve were mere children in the world. It was an unusually cruel test.

They fail the test and it turns out that the “knowledge” they gained was to be ashamed of or embarrassed by their bodies. Embarrassed by their God-given bodies!? We are only three chapters into the Old Testament and Satan has already got people denying the beautiful bodies that God gave them. Good work Satan! A stroke of genius. Not only does he turn people against their own bodies he makes women bad people and puts a curse on them.

It is not even necessary to pursue the notion that Satan influenced the writing of the Bible to question the idea that it was written by the Creator or even by people benevolent toward the Creator. First, he puts his two new creations in a situation no understanding and loving parent would do to their children. Second, this all-knowing God turns his back while the serpent tempts Eve. Third, he does not forgive as other passages in The Bible tell us we should do. Fourth, he puts curses on serpents, women and men with which they must live for the rest of creation. Vengeance is not a particularly endearing trait. Fifth, he throws Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden and shuts it off to them for eternity. This does not seem like behavior we would expect from a loving parent let alone a creator toward his creation.

God is such a jerk in the book of Job that one can interpret it as Satan writing a story to make God look bad. After all, Satan is not the Perfect One here so it would make sense that he would want to poke some fun at God. Or perhaps it is just a show of vanity. He has done such a good job getting people to believe in the “God” he created in people’s minds that he wants to bring down this creation of his.

In Chapter I of Job we are introduced to Job, a perfect and upright guy who eschews evil. God recognizes that Job is good. Satan tells God that Job only seems good because God has given him a plush life. God accepts Satan’s challenge and tells him to test Job. Job is tested sorely (his children are killed and all of this wealth is stolen or destroyed) but his faith remains strong.

If God is all powerful–can see into the heart and soul of every person on earth, can do anything he wishes–why couldn’t God see what Satan saw? Was it because he had not walked upon the earth as Satan says? If that is the case, why didn’t he, so he could observe his people and know them as well as Satan? Why did God trust Satan over his own observation?

Job was praying to God and doing everything God asked. God was tempted by Satan. Job was a pawn in the power struggle between God and Satan. Shouldn’t it be discouraging to think that God could be so easily manipulated by Satan?

In Chapter 2 God says to Satan of Job, “..there is none like him in earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” Satan says you only allowed me to take away his worldly possessions. Let me hurt his body and you’ll see, he’ll curse you. God says, go ahead but don’t kill him.

Why would God portray himself like this? It is more fun to think that Satan wrote these two chapters and that he gives himself away by portraying God as vain, impulsive, unsure of himself, and, frankly, not very bright.

The Old Testament was written from oft told stories passed on from generation to generation. These stories were part the history of the people and part the myth that they developed to answer life’s perplexing questions. The myths of the Old Testament are very similar to myths in all cultures. Joseph Campbell recommends, “Read other people’s myths, not those of your own religion, because you tend to interpret your own religion in terms of facts.”

A lot of the “mysteries” of the Bible are solved when we put the Bible in the context of history. It is a document of stories told and ultimately written that are not facts but that are a window into the early thinking of people to describe their life, how they came to be, what was happening to them and how they tried to provide guidance to each other to make their lives better.

Consider the Ten Commandments in this light. What parent of a teenager has not wanted some supreme being to tell their child to “honour thy father and thy mother?” Do you really think the relationship between parents and children was so different 2,500 years ago or more?

Who among us today thinks that killing, stealing or lying (bearing false witness) are acceptable behaviors? When people today are asked to list the Ten Commandments most begin, “Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not commit adultery.” The first pops out easily. The second follows fairly easily and each following is more of a struggle. Why would Satan cause the Ten Commandments to be written? They are good, aren’t they?

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
King James Version, Deut. 5.1-21

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s.

The first three commandments tell followers that there is only one God and that the author of the Commandments is it. Not only is he the one and only God but if you dare to question him, he will lay a curses on you and your children and your children’s children. That goes beyond jealousy. That is vindictive in the extreme. Why not give the future generations a chance to make their own mistakes? The answer is that this “god”, the god who caused the writing of this Bible, doesn’t want anyone to question him. Why? Perhaps because questioning will lead to a better understanding of the world than the one presented in the Bible.

The fourth commandment is one that is easily supported. Who doesn’t want a day of rest? That it should be spent studying Satan’s teaching isn’t too big a price to pay for having the day off.

If you are a parent, you want your children to honor you whether deserved or not. Good deal having the Holy Book to whack my kids with if they misbehave.

It is pretty easy to agree with a dictate from on high against killing, stealing and bearing false witness. It’s interesting they are so far down the list. Didn’t even make the top five.

Coveting and adultery are debatable. If you look at this from the point of view of a politician of today, it is an easy decision to go with the Ten Commandments and against coveting and adultery. That they are in the Ten Commandments is probably more telling about the times in which the commandments were written than anything else. It is quite likely that if the majority of people 2,500 years ago had been into mate-swapping or open marriages, Commandment Seven would have been different or perhaps there would only have been nine commandments. The majority of people who would be listening to the telling of the story of Mosses and the tablets must have been against adultery and coveting and so were happy Satan had put them on the list.

Aren’t the Ten Commandments a good thing? Based on what most people remember of them, sure. However, Commandment One which is supported by the next two commandments has caused much grief in the world and will cause much more before our thinking is able to progress beyond the notion that there is one universal god; omnipotent, loving, vengeful, jealous, vain, impulsive, unsure, and not very bright.

How can such a god command the love and respect that he does today? The answer is that people are taught to believe from the time they are babes in arms. They are taught not to question by the most important people in their early lives, their parents. Their parents, just to be sure that they are not questioned, teach their children that there is a higher, more knowing power than they, their pastor, minister, priest, rabbi, imam.

While science in all areas has expanded our understanding of the world tremendously over the past two millennia there has been very little expansion in our understanding of philosophical questions that might improve our lives. As long as people hold that they know things that are really their beliefs there will be religious conflict. A great hope for the next millennia, and it will take a millennia at least, would be such a simple thing as having everyone understand that they are agnostics. We can be agnostic Jews or Christians or Muslims or atheists. We can hold beliefs and at the same time know that they are beliefs and that they are ours and that we honor all other beliefs because they are, after all, only beliefs, not knowledge.

If Satan’s mission is to destroy creation and if his method is to cause the writing of the Bible, his strategy is working pretty well. A religious fundamentalist, after nearly a dozen attacks on the nation with the greatest destructive power the world has ever known, finally found a leader of that country willing to declare a war. George W. Bush gets considerable financial and voter support from religious fundamentalist in the United States who believe that the Bible predicts a war to end all wars, Armageddon.

58 thoughts on “The “Satan Wrote the Bible” Essay

  1. Just one of many major flaws in the premise of your whole article is the complete lack of any mention of Jesus who lived on earth, performed miracles enough that he gained thousands of followers in his lifetime, died and rose to life again. Here we have physical evidence of a god that loves so much he would sacrifice his only son so that Jesus took the punishment we deserved for our sin, and a god so powerful he can raise people from the dead again.

    • Jesus was a myth. There is no concrete evidence of him outside of the Bible. No one even knows who wrote the gospels. The 2 passages by josephus were forged in to his writings.

      • You are right; there is no concrete evidence Jesus existed. You can find a good analysis of this in The Story of Civilization, Volume III by Will Durant (pages 553-555). After citing several references to Christians dating 50 to 100 years after the supposed life of Jesus he writes: “These references prove the existence of Christians rather than of Christ, but unless we assume the latter we are driven to the improbable hypothesis that Jesus was invented in one generation…”
        Christians believing Jesus mother was a virgin, that he walked on water and rose from the dead are elevating myth to reality in their minds. Whether or not Jesus existed is really not very important regarding our lives today. The Bible exists, today, in our lives, influencing lives today. I wish the influence were all positive but it seems to me it’s influence is overwhelmingly negative destroying lives, destroying our environment, fomenting hatred.

  2. Good read. Your missing the point Brendan. From this point of view Satan wrote the bible. Satan is the God in the bible. Therefore in order to manipulate more people into following him he creates the STORY of Jesus who he says that God sent to die for us humans. In turn Satan received the thousands of followers you speak of.

    • I love it when someone gets the point. Thanks, Jared.
      I’m not trying to get anyone to change their belief, only to think and, hopefully, come to an understanding that their belief is no more or less valid than the beliefs of others.

  3. So through what you have said satan could have very well influenced you to write this article and could be a deception. just as you state the new testimate could be a deception of satan

    • Of course. If you believe there is a Satan (I don’t) then, yes. I don’t believe I have singled out the New Testament. My focus in this essay is the Old Testament, however, people who believe in the notion of Satan might want to try to understand how Satan might work to achieve his (or her) goals.

  4. Humorous essay. I read through the whole thing and found nothing whatsoever convincing about it. Your understanding of the Bible is shallow and your attempt to construct an alternate storyline (Satan as author) is rife with inadequacy.

    First, putting aside your thesis for just a moment, no Christian would believe that God and Satan are “essentially equal in powers” as you stated in your first paragraph. Satan is a created being. Ergo, the one who created him (Yahweh) is infinitely more powerful than Satan. Second, your account of origins is absurd: “There were these two guys, angels, gods, a god and an angel, whatever. Both very bright. God figured out how to create life.” Yahweh (God) created Satan (angel). Yahweh is not an angel and Satan is no god. And Yahweh did not just “figure out” how to create life. He is creator and creation was His plan from eternity past. I’m telling you what Christians believe. If you are going to try to undermine the foundation to our worldview, at least get our side of the story right before you begin to paint a new picture. One of my first thoughts when I started to read your article was: “he doesn’t even understand what I actually believe” and this is made clear through your patent disregard (or lazy handling) of the Biblical narrative. Straw men make poor pillars to hold up an argument.

    Turning now to your thesis, you still keep Satan as the “evil” character in the story and God as the “good” character – or at least better than Satan. You say that after crafting Genesis 1-3, Satan “now has people believing that his words are God’s and he has people focusing on an evil force other than himself.” So even though we humans are completely ignorant to Satan’s nefarious mission, he is still fundamentally evil to the core and, according to you, he goes about to author the Bible in an attempt to keep people from knowing the true God. And yet, what do we learn after reading the Bible; specifically about God and Satan? We learn that God does not lie (Hebrews 6:18), that His words are faithful and true (Revelation 21:5), He loves His people (Isaiah 43:4) and all nations and kingdoms will worship Him forever (Daniel 4:34-35). Regarding Satan, we learn in John 8:44 that he is the father of lies (indeed, the language he speaks is deception), that he is destructive and seeks to cause harm to people (Job 1&2; Mark 5:1-5; 1 Peter 5:8), that he was responsible for sin entering the world (Genesis 3; Revelation 12:9), and that he will eventually be tortured in hell for eternity because of how evil he is (Revelation 20:7-10). So, according to your alternate version, Satan (the evil one) wants to deceive people and turn them away from God (the good one). How does he do this? By authoring a book about how good God is and how evil he is………??? And if he merely switched names with God, whereby making every statement about God really about himself and every statement about himself really about God, then Satan is the definition of “goodness” and “trustworthy”, which he cannot be as an evil creature. Which brings me to my final objection…

    As I have already pointed out, John 8:44 says that Satan is a liar; he lies continuously. Is that statement true or false? If that statement is true, than Satan could not have authored the Bible, because A) he is telling the truth and his statement about himself and his character is contradictory and B) everything about him in the Bible is actually false (because he lied), which means that God is the evil one and Satan is the good one. But is it possible that a good creature would fabricate a false story about how evil he is in order to destroy creation and deceive billions of people? However, if John 8:44 is false, if Satan is not a liar, then why would he have lied and declared himself to be the biggest liar of them all?

    A clever effort to confuse people, but a failed effort in the end.

    • Thank you, Ben, for your thoughtful reaction to the central essay on the site.
      In your paragraph beginning “First” you write “no Christian would believe that God and Satan are ‘essentially equal in powers’” as I write in my first paragraph. You do not address the list of powers I attribute to Satan a little farther on so I’m going to assume you agree with those. If not, your belief is different from the many Christians I have communicated with on the subject. God can clearly do anything Satan can plus He created our world, our life as we know it. For me to say they have essentially equal powers with that one exception is worth challenging. Admittedly the exception is huge.
      You say Yahweh created Satan. I’m pretty sure that story is not in the Bible but I’m happy to be corrected on this. Please give me book and verse where I can find this in the Bible. I’m working from the Bible. Lots of interesting stories/theories have been developed over the years. I see mine as simply another interesting story based on the Bible.
      I don’t doubt that I don’t understand what you believe but, please, your belief may not coincide with the belief of many other Christians. You say I disregard the Biblical narrative; please start with finding support for your belief in the creation of Satan in the Bible.
      You have many Biblical references in your next paragraph. They are all about what people say about God and Satan. My essay is based on what God does like creating the world and the way he treated Job, and what he says like the Ten Commandments. That people in the Bible and today say, feel and believe wonderful things about God, their God, the God they believe in, is unquestioned. The God you believe in is really quite different than the God in the Bible. Recognizing that should not make the God you believe in inferior in any way. If anything, it might free you to love your God even more which is a good thing as long as you accept if not respect the gods others believe in.
      You write “So, according to your alternate version, Satan (the evil one) wants to deceive people and turn them away from God”. Not quite what I’m saying, Ben; not away from God but toward the destruction of God’s creation, this earth and life we enjoy on it and he is succeeding rather well with Bible thumppers polluting our water, our air, our land, our atmosphere.
      There is much in the Bible to be admired. I think Jesus teachings about love would change the world even if only Christians understood them. I invite you to read my essays on love.
      PS: I loved your last sentence.

      • Hello Thomas,
        Thanks for your courteous response. Let me briefly respond to a few of your comments before I make a few of my own:

        1) “God can clearly do anything Satan can plus He created our world, our life as we know it.” On the whole, I take your point. From a big picture perspective, Satan and God have essentially equal footing when it comes to power, with the exception of creation. However, when we delve into the details, I think there are still some huge deficits in Satan’s power. For example, there is no evidence from the Bible that Satan can give life where life did not exist (Genesis 2:7), raise a human from the dead or guarantee salvation for anyone. He is also bound in space and time and does not possess all knowledge – neither of these can be said about God.

        2) “You say Yahweh created Satan. I’m pretty sure that story is not in the Bible but I’m happy to be corrected on this.” To a degree, you have a point. There is nothing explicitly in the Bible about God creating Satan (though it follows logically that if God is the first cause, then Satan is a product of God). I feel compelled to mention that there are several doctrines or beliefs held by Christians today that are not explicitly taught in the Bible yet are firmly believed (for good reason). For instance, the word “Trinity” never shows up in the Bible and Jesus never says “I am God”, though very compelling and sound cases can be made in support of both doctrines, which is why (in my opinion), they have been cornerstones for Christian theology for the last 1,700+ years. In regards to Satan being created, I think God’s words to the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 are actually spoken to Satan, because there is language that would never fit a mere human: he was the embodiment of perfection (verse 12), he was in the Garden of Eden (13), he is called a cherub, which is only an angelic term (14 & 16) and, clearly, he was created by God (13).

        3) “The God you believe in is really quite different than the God in the Bible.” You are wrong Thomas. I believe in Yahweh, the loving, the compassionate and the merciful God, who also struck down all the firstborn in Egypt (Exodus 12:29), ordered the slaughter of people groups which included women and children (1 Samuel 15:3) and is jealous for His glory (Exodus 34:14).

        Ok, three comments of my own:
        1) Would you please address the final paragraph in my first response, where I ask you about John 8:44? I’m curious to hear your opinion on that verse and how it relates to Satan’s authorship of the Bible.

        2) I’ve noticed in our brief time being acquainted that you have some very negative thoughts and feelings towards God and Christians. You say that “he [Satan] is succeeding rather well with Bible thumpers polluting our water, our air, our land, our atmosphere.” That is a very pretentious statement to make. You also call God a “bloodthirsty son-of-a bitch” in your reply to Brendan. So we can both be honest and admit that we approach this entire argument from two vastly differing worldviews. And I am skeptical that you will even take my points very seriously because you don’t take the Bible very seriously and because you have no respect or admiration for the author of the Bible. Not that you need to embrace my worldview, but your bias pushes you very hard in the opposite direction. Now if I have misrepresented you in any way, I apologize. I can only go off of what you have written in these comments which, admittedly, is not much to go off of.

        3) I just have to get this point in because your statement bugged me. “Bible thumpers polluting our water, our air, our land, our atmosphere.” Atheists (not saying you are one because I don’t know for sure) constantly laud the advancements of science and degrade religion for being anti-science and anti-intellectual etc. However, if we were able to somehow measure the damage that “scientific advancements” have caused to our planet in recent history, I think it would far outweigh whatever “damage” Bible thumpers are causing.

        If you choose to respond and would rather carry this into email, feel free:
        benchilds88@gmail.com

        • Your point 1.
          We can debate what powers God has vs Satan but it is not any part of my thesis. Do you agree:
          Satan is not stupid, in fact he is extremely clever;
          Satan can influence people;
          Satan can influence the writing of books;
          Satan can influence the way people act;
          Satan has been around since before the creation of the world;
          Satan’s mission is to lead us away from the work of God;
          Satan can not create a person, plant or anything in nature.
          Those traits are the basis for my essay and if you disagree with any of them, you will be making a point that I will have to address. As nearly as I can tell the only one you disagree with is Satan being around before creation.
          Your point 2.
          You say ,”if God is the first cause, then Satan is a product of God.” I love if:then arguments, obviously as that is the structure of my essay. If your premiss, if God is the first cause, is correct, then you are correct Satan is a product of God. I’m going to accept your premiss and conclusion though if we give it some thought, I think we can find some fault with it. For example, if Satan is the serpent in the Garden of Eden, God created him about the same time he created Adam and Eve.
          My story of two bright guys hanging out and one of them created this life we have come to know is clearly a made-up story. We can make up another one to fit the notion that Satan was created by God between the time He created the earth and Genesis 3. I welcome your suggestions.
          I certainly agree with you that there are several “beliefs held by Christians today that are not explicitly taught in the Bible.” I am sure that some of these are helpful and an improvement on the Bible. I look forward to even more movement away from a doctrine written so many years ago. The movement has been incredibly slow when put against what we have learned about our world since then. However, my essay is based on the Bible as it was written (well, the King James version). My thesis is valid as long as there are people who take the Bible literally as God’s word.
          Thank you for your reference to Ezekiel 28. I read it with the interpretation you gave it and it holds together pretty well. It is, of course, interpretation. I prefer Job as an introduction to Satan. I guess I would suggest “clearly” is not the best word to describe Ezekiel’s creation of Satan.
          Your point 3
          You are right; I was wrong. You do know the God you believe in. Do you find it interesting that the good things about Him are what is said about him and the bad things are His actual actions? I guess I feel actions carry more weight than words. My conception of the God of the Bible is solely based on His actions.
          Your comment 1.
          If I understand you you are invoking the liar’s paradox which requires that every statement from a liar is a lie which is seldom the case. In John 8:44 we have Jesus calling Satan a liar. If Satan wrote the Bible and put those words in Jesus’ mouth it is not Satan saying I’m a liar but putting those words into the mouth of another just as writers put words in the mouths of others all the time for their own purpose. If the question is why would Satan want to be called a liar the answer is it doesn’t matter to him. He is not trying to get anyone to follow him. His mission is to get people to destroy God’s creation. I like to think of God’s creation as our lives, your life and mine. If Satan can get we people to hate each other (what is your feeling toward Muslims right now?), if Satan can get us to destroy our environment ( I hope you aren’t a global warming denier); he is achieving his goal.
          Your comment 2.
          I don’t have negative feeling toward God or Christians. If you want to understand me better, please read the essays on love. They are based on Jesus’ teachings on the subject. I have said frequently that I do not believe in the God of the Bible, the God you outlined rather well in point 3. That you find that God to be compassionate and that He has given you much comfort I don’t doubt and I have no desire to pull you away from a religion that you find helpful to your life. What, then, am I all about, you might ask? I’m about thinking. You and I have stimulated thinking in each other. I love it. I love you for the time you are taking in this dialogue.
          Your comment 3
          Bible thumpers is not a friendly phrase, to be sure. I apologize. I was thinking of people like those I see on Fox, Catholics Bill O’Riley and Sean Hannity who wear their religion on their sleeve and show little regard for the environment. As to bloodthirsty SOB I’ll refer again to your description of God.
          You are correct that scientific advances have caused many environmental problems. I don’t think we can pin these problems on any religion though Genesis 1:28 has been used by some to further their ambitions and justify their actions.

          • Alright, round three. Ding.

            Point 1: Actually, I agree with all your statements regarding Satan. I do believe that he existed before the creation of the world…just not before God. I suppose that in some way impacts the first half of your response to point #2.

            Point 2: You quote me accurately regarding beliefs not explicitly taught in the Bible, yet I do not agree with your own statement after my quote: “I am sure that some of these are helpful and an improvement on the Bible.” I don’t know of any major Christian doctrine that improves upon the Bible. Just because the deity of Christ and the Trinity (amongst others core beliefs) cannot be proved with one Bible verse does not mean that they are absent in the pages of Scripture. Far from it. Also, did you have something specific in mind when you said: “I look forward to even more movement away from a doctrine written so many years ago.” I’m not sure what doctrine you see the church moving away from. All core doctrine believed by the early church fathers (existence of Yahweh, inspiration of Scripture, deity & humanity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith, the Trinity and reality of heaven & hell) is still believed today. Finally, I agree that “clearly” may not be the best word for Ezekiel 28, but I’ll stick my interpretation unless you can offer a better one.

            Point 3: Maybe you missed them, but I see plenty of good things God does in the Bible: choosing to create and give us life (Genesis), freeing the Hebrew slaves from 400 years of brutal slavery in Egypt (Exodus), sparing the life of David (2 Samuel 12), freeing Peter from prison (Acts 12) and sending Jesus as an atoning sacrifice so that fallen humanity may have hope for redemption (Matthew-Revelation) which includes you and me. I just came up with this list off the top of my head. I’m sure that a careful examination of Scripture would reveal a multitude of good actions done by God. I also reject your premise that God does anything bad. This takes us down another road which is not the point of your article, but I needed to comment on your moral judgment against God. Moral judgments cannot be made in a godless universe…only moral preferences.

            Comment 1: Jesus does not JUST call Satan a liar. He calls him the Father of lies; He says that lying is Satan’s language. Satan is a pathological liar. Have you ever met a pathological liar Thomas? I have and it’s scary. They lie without even having to – they don’t know when they are lying and when they are telling the truth. So John 8:44 is thrown into the muck and mire if Satan is indeed a pathological liar. Even if he was merely putting words into the mouth of Jesus, why would a liar admit to being a liar? The reader of the Bible is left with no choice but to despise Satan and not trust him, whereas he may in fact be a being of supreme delight and trustworthiness, because maybe all the evil and nefarious descriptions about him in the Bible are lies. Maybe not. But how could we know for sure? Behind curtain number 2, we have Yahweh, whose entire character in Scripture is based on His self-revelation as a holy and righteous God (Isaiah 6:3) who is separate from sin and delights in truth. If Satan is a pathological liar, how could he even pretend to venerate attributes which are an abhorrence to his own character? Yet if Satan is not a liar, then why would he make himself out to be completely untrustworthy? I still see a dilemma. And for what it’s worth, I’m not a global warming denier.

            Comment 2: I too am about thinking. I trust that our conversation (a conversation I have very much enjoyed) has demonstrated this. As a thinking person, I don’t embrace my belief in God simply because it gives me comfort (although He is a very comforting God), but because I believe Yahweh exists (of course, I would go even farther and say that I know He exists. After all, I don’t need to believe that my wife exists because I know her very well). “Thinking” is not an express lane to atheism. Some of the greatest minds in history (and present day) were/are theists or at least deists. And, if I can drift into psychology for just a moment, I have a sneaking suspicion that “thinking” is not all that sustains your atheism. The atheists that I have encountered in my life (including a family member), without exception, embrace their atheism for emotional reasons first and foremost, then build up a wall of intellectual arguments and polemics around that emotion. Perhaps you are an exception…

            Comment 3: Only by ignoring the central theme of the Bible can you call God a bloodthirsty SOB without any modicum of balance towards love, compassion and hope, all of which are absent in the atheistic worldview. I read your article on love; very warm and fuzzy. But a universe that has impersonal origins brought about by time and chance can offer no foundation or basis for love, compassion and hope, nor why these are better than hate, scorn and discouragement.

            I’ve thrown my chum into the water and await your feeding frenzy…so to speak.

          • Lots of chum; hard to know where to begin. Thank you. I’m glad you are enjoying this as much as I am.
            You say you agree with my statements regarding Satan so it follows that we agree that Satan could have influenced the writing of the Bible. We also agree that he didn’t; me because I don’t believe in Satan and you because you are sure the Bible is God’s word. What is most important is that neither of us knows, we can think we are right, believe we are right, have faith we are right but we can’t know we are right or that the other’s notion or any other notion is wrong.
            I have asked a number of folks who hold belief similar to yours if they think Satan could work through religions. My favorite answer has been “Yes, he does his best work that way.” It amazes me that these people believe their belief is the only valid one and all other religious people are mistaken and are going to hell. I find this particularly disturbing in people who say they are Christians because the thought can hardly be considered loving and the central message I come away with from the New Testament is that we should love everyone.
            Your interpretation of Ezekiel 28 is fine by me. Of course I prefer scripture that requires less interpretation and is more direct; Job, for example, is, I believe, the first time Satan actually appears by name and this book is pretty straightforward though I have read some interesting interpretations.
            Thank you for the list of good things God did. You say you reject my “premise that God does anything bad.” I was referring to your definition, of God:“I believe in Yahweh, the loving, the compassionate and the merciful God, who also struck down all the firstborn in Egypt (Exodus 12:29), ordered the slaughter of people groups which included women and children (1 Samuel 15:3) and is jealous for His glory (Exodus 34:14).” I’m all for a loving and compassionate God and one who committed good deeds but striking down firstborn, slaughter and jealousy don’t work for a God I could embrace even when balanced against the good things He did.
            In your response to comment 1 there is one sentence that stands out for me. “But how could we know for sure?” Absolutely! I wish everyone would recognize the difference between knowledge and belief/faith. Belief can be powerful and it can shape and guide and even destroy. I can’t help but feel that if everyone recognized the difference between belief and knowledge there would be less conflict in the world. I’d love a world in which we had agnostic Catholics, agnostic Jews, agnostic Muslims, agnostic atheists, agnostic Lutherans, etc. Everyone could say “this is what I believe but I don’t know and I respect your belief.” Why, goodness, I may have just described my idea of heaven.
            In comment 1 response you are looking at the Satan-wrote-the-Bible notion from your point of view. It’s difficult to do but to understand the essay you have to take yourself out of the Bible, out of the box, change the point from which you view and try to put yourself in Satan’s shoes. He is the author and his mission is destroying God’s creation. He wants God’s creation, humans who can exchange thoughts through reading and writing, to mess up their lives. As an example, some people have interpreted the Bible as prohibiting dancing causing followers who have an inborn desire to dance to either refrain from doing something they would enjoy or feel guilty about doing it. Masturbation is another example. Does Satan care what we think of him? Not at all. Having a villein in the story makes it more interesting.
            For the record I am not an atheist nor am I a theist or deist.
            The difference between knowing your wife exists and knowing Yahweh exists is that it would be very strange for anyone who has ever seen your wife to deny her existence while the atheist in your family easily denies the existence of God. Your wife exists in our actual life perceptions while God’s existence occurs in your mind.
            “…love, compassion and hope, all of which are absent in the atheistic worldview.” I’m not aware of any worldview that is absent love, compassion or hope. Are you getting this from the atheists you know?
            “But a universe that has impersonal origins brought about by time and chance can offer no foundation or basis for love, compassion and hope, nor why these are better than hate, scorn and discouragement.” I’m sorry but I really don’t have a clue on what this is based. Perhaps this should be our next thread.
            I don’t think I judged God, morally or otherwise but feel free to point out where I’ve done so.
            As for my comment on movement away from doctrine written many years ago “doctrine” may not be the best word. What I mean is that we have learned so much about the world since the Bible was written that it might be well for major philosophies on living (religions) that have their root in writing going back as much as 2,500 years to recognize the advances in our understanding.

  5. I saw another “Brendan” post here and didn’t want my name smeared. A good god does good things. Yahweh does evil things. Very, very evil things. He routinely ordered genocide. Anybody that thinks that Yahweh was justified in killing off entire nations (why did he have to have humans do it, btw?) believes that there is some way in which genocide is the right thing to do, that there are EVER circumstances in which an entire nation of human beings deserves to die at once. Really?

    If you believe that Yahweh is not evil despite committing genocide, or attempting to, then you must yourself believe that genocide is sometimes morally good. Think about that.

    Oh, you don’t like genocide? Then you and your god have different moral systems! You’re a blasphemer, an apostate! Now you get to burn in hell for refusing to worshipping a mass-murderer.

    How are you okay with this? And how is the rest of society supposed to deal with a sizable fraction of its population that believes genocide is justifiable? We’re not talking about people that are okay with theft, vandalism, beatings, torture even, but the murder of entire races of human beings. Genocide. The god Yahweh is all about it. That is one evil god. No object of my worship, ever, since I am absolutely morally opposed to genocide.

  6. Hello Thomas,

    For some reason I couldn’t reply to your last response, so I had to start a new thread. By the way, I’m still enjoying our dialogue. Don’t let my feisty personality make you think otherwise.

    I think we can put the original topic to rest. I’m fine with your conclusion: “Satan could have influenced the writing of the Bible…what is most important is that neither of us knows.” Now, let me bring up a few fresh items for discussion:

    1) First, the difference between knowing and believing. I’m a little fuzzy on what your definition of “knowledge” is. Specifically, would your definition entail absolute certainty? My assumption, based on your statement above regarding Satan and the Bible (“neither of us knows”), is that you do not believe that knowledge entails absolute certainly. If this is the case, then I would agree with you. But then I must challenge your statement: “I wish everyone would recognize the difference between knowledge and belief/faith.” If absolute certainly is not available to us, then how can we truly know anything? We experience reality and come to conclusions based on the evidence available, plus how we interpret that evidence. But I don’t see why a gulf must exist between knowledge and belief. For example, I claim that the core of the earth is solid iron and nickel that is nearly 10,000 degree Fahrenheit. Yet how do I know this to be true? I’ve been told by others (who could have been lying or misinformed) and I’ve seen very nice pictures which were drawn or computer generated. I have not experienced the earth’s core with any of my 5 senses. Yet if I told you that “I know the earth’s core is hot, solid metal”, would you chide me for entering the realm of belief? Of course not. If I told you that my wife loved me, is this faith? On one level, yes. I don’t know with absolute certainty that she loves me…it may all be an elaborate ruse. Yet with the information available to me, I believe (and I would die for this belief) that she really loves me. So help me out here, because I don’t see the chasm separating knowledge and belief/faith.

    2) “The difference between knowing your wife exists and knowing Yahweh exists is that it would be very strange for anyone who has ever seen your wife to deny her existence while the atheist in your family easily denies the existence of God. Your wife exists in our actual life perceptions while God’s existence occurs in your mind.” I would challenge you to find a single (true) Christian who would say that God exists solely in their mind. God exists in actual life perceptions. Yet we are told in the Bible that people will reject Him, even though “what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them” (Romans 1:19). So yes, I agree that it would be VERY strange for someone to deny my wife’s existence. I also find it equally strange when someone denies the existence of God.

    3) You said: “I’m all for a loving and compassionate God and one who committed good deeds but striking down firstborn, slaughter and jealousy don’t work for a God I could embrace even when balanced against the good things He did.” So let me see if I understand this: the only god you would believe in is one who displays love, compassion and good deeds. Does that mean that all evil and atrocities of years gone by gets swept under the rug? What would your god feel at the site of Jews being gassed in the chambers of Auschwitz? How would your god react as he (she) watched ships moving across the Atlantic towards America in the 1800’s, transporting hundreds of terrified Africans who were fast approaching a life of brutal enslavement? How would a god of ONLY lov, compassion and good deeds respond to planes slamming into buildings, tornados leveling whole cities and Hutus butchering Tutsis with machetes? I’m very curious to know more about this god of yours. On the other hand Thomas, the God of the Bible promises that all evil will be vindicated and all tears will be dried. Though you may view striking down the firstborn of Egypt to be harsh, bear in mind that God was punishing the horrific evils committed by Egypt against the Hebrews, specifically continuing to harbor them as slaves against their wills. Yahweh is a God who punishes sin; a God who will (in the present and future) right ALL the wrongs committed by humans against humans. A God who will judge the world and “make all things new” (Revelation 21:5). You might not like a God who is committed to justice, but I’ll take Him over your god any day.

    4) Last but not least, worldviews. You said: “I’m not aware of any worldview that is absent love, compassion or hope.” I agree that human beings (for the most part) are not absent love, compassion and hope. But here is where I disagree with you. When we look at a worldview APART from a specific human, we can examine that worldview based solely on its own merits and what it offers. The atheistic worldview (the one I was referring to), also known as secular humanism, does not intrinsically offer a foundation for love, compassion and hope, even if every atheist in the world possesses all three. According to secular humanism, life came from impersonal matter, and complexity arose over billions of years, with no small amount of chance. You’re a thinker Thomas…ponder this: on what basis could we (according to that worldview) esteem love over hate, compassion over ridicule and hope over despair? In the end, it all boils down to personal preference and opinion. You said: “I’m sorry but I really don’t have a clue on what this is based.” It’s based on reason and thinking, plus the testimony of other atheists who are honest enough to admit it. Consider this quote from none other than Richard Dawkins, found in his book River out of Eden: “If the universe were just electrons and selfish genes, meaningless tragedies like the crashing of a bus are exactly what we should expect, along with equally meaningless good fortune. Such a universe would be neither evil nor good in intention. It would manifest no intentions of any kind. In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference” (Pages 132-133). Dawkins is exactly right. And the bad news for you Thomas is that agnosticism (or whatever worldview along those lines you claim to adhere to) doesn’t provide any answers to this quandary either. Because we know that absolute truth exists and that life has meaning and that humans have intrinsic value and worth. Hope is not stupid and love is not an illusion. Some things are objectively wrong, no matter the culture, time or person. Secular humanism and agnosticism as worldviews cannot make any of these claims. David Silverman, President of American Atheists, said in a debate last year that it was only his opinion that the Holocaust was wrong and according to his worldview, he is correct. It is ONLY his opinion. Well sorry, that doesn’t work for me. The Holocaust was evil – plain and simple. And I can say that because my worldview acknowledges the reality of objective morality, grounded in a personal God, revealed in the Bible, whose very nature is the definition of goodness. If you don’t like my worldview, offer something better.

    • Hello Ben,
      I think we are very similar in our interest in this debate and not wishing to turn the other off. Not to worry, I won’t be turned off. Your arguments are persuasive and well thought out. I love it.
      1 and 2 knowledge vs belief
      Language is tricky but necessary to communicate. You are probably familiar with Descartes’ cogito “I think therefore I am.” In his Meditations he was trying to prove the existence of God using logic and arrived at the one thing he could actually know, that he existed. I’m not aware of any serious challenge to that. He goes on from that foundation to prove to his satisfaction the existence of God. Nothing beyond the cogito goes unchallenged leaving me with the thought that the only thing I know is that I exist; all else, all that I perceive including the nature of my life is conjecture. Consider that what I “know” of my body (like what I “know” about the center of the earth) is that it is made up of atoms and that atoms are mostly space so that if all the space could be removed I’d be little more than a speck of dust. Difficult to know the nature of my life, might it be a virtual reality of some kind? Am I a character in a video game being played by…? If something like this were the case all of my perceptions could be nothing more than a very sophisticated movie. I don’t think the true nature of my perceptions is important. You exist in my perceptions and I am enjoying our interaction.
      The important thing in the preceding paragraph for our dialogue is the immediate problem I had with the word “know” when I put it in quotation marks. Put a small circle in the center of a piece of paper and write “I am” in the circle. That is all that we actually, absolutely know. Now draw a larger circle around the “I am” circle. That is what we perceive in our life from the computer screen you are looking at, the words and the core of the earth, your wife and the love you feel. OK, our perception of the core of the earth is something we learned somewhere along the line and we have accepted it, you and I at least. I also accept that you love your wife and that she loves you. There is a lot that we can both accept without quibbling I’m sure. All of those things can go in the circle of perceptions and if we were purists we should probably always use the word “perceive” rather than “know.”
      Outside of that circle are belief, faith, theory, conviction. I suggest we put a gray area line between perception and belief/faith/theory/conviction and we can put things of disagreement in this gray area. For example, the Catholic Church denied Copernicus’ findings that the earth was not the center of the universe for 100 years. During that period, just to avoid frustrating debate between science and church I would put that issue in the gray area. Today evolution would go in there for you and I if you don’t accept the science on the subject that I do.
      You challenge me “to find a single (true) Christian who would say that God exists solely in their mind.” Would you like names? I suspect you would deem any I name as not being “true” so perhaps the question should be “How many true Christians are there?” Best we simply define true Christian as one who believes God’s existence is much greater than solely in his/her mind. As to the challenge I’d start with Joseph Campbell. This quote from his book The Power of Myth fits our discussion:
      “The person who thinks he has found the ultimate truth is wrong. There is an often-quoted verse in Sanskrit, which appears in the Chinese Tao-te Ching as well: ‘He who thinks he knows, doesn’t know. He who knows that he doesn’t know, knows. For in this context, to know is not to know. And not to know is to know.’”

      There need be no chasm separating knowledge and belief/faith within any individual. It is when people feel they know something and that it is important that others know it too. If someone told you your wife didn’t love you, you would laugh at them because you know that she does; but what if rumors were started, the whole neighborhood comes to believe she doesn’t love you and it escalates to accusations of adultery, a mob forms to stone her to death. The people who gather to stone her believe she is an adulteress. As long as each of us holds our belief/faith as our own, important to our-self but recognized as not necessarily being important to anyone else, there is no problem. The problem arises when we feel others should hold the same belief and we take action to make that happen. It escalates the more fervently we believe ourselves to be right and judge others to be wrong until those others, holding their own beliefs….well, if you don’t see where this leads, read some history. You might want to check out the Reformation culminating in the 30 Years War between Christians and Christians.
      I’m going to post this before getting into the rest of your really good stimulation for new thoughts.

      posted the next day
      You wrote, “God exists in actual life perceptions.” Great stuff! In fact, a great philosopher using logic to try to prove the existence of God wrote something similar.
      “Every clear and distinct perception is undoubtedly something, and hence cannot come from nothing, but must necessarily have God for its author. Its author, I say, is God, who is supremely perfect, and who cannot be a deceiver on pain of contradiction; hence the perception is undoubtedly true.” (Descartes Meditation IV) If you are interested in reading the Meditations and the problems with it, I recommend Descartes, an Analytical and Historical Introduction by Georges Dicker.
      My response to this is that, yes, God exists in actual life perceptions in that you and many others exist and that you and many others believe in the existence of God and to that extent God exists. That God actually exists is still outside the ring of perception. Inside the ring of perception God exists in books and minds.

      Ben: So let me see if I understand this: the only god you would believe in is one who displays love, compassion and good deeds.
      Thomas: Sounds like a god I could embrace.
      Ben: Does that mean that all evil and atrocities of years gone by gets swept under the rug?
      Thomas: I don’t see how that follows.
      Ben: What would your god feel at the site of Jews being gassed in the chambers of Auschwitz?
      Thomas: He might think, Ah, that Satan, he’s at it again.
      Ben: How would a god of ONLY love, compassion and good deeds respond to planes slamming into buildings, tornadoes leveling whole cities and Hutus butchering Tutsis with machetes? I’m very curious to know more about this god of yours. How would your god react as he (she) watched ships moving across the Atlantic towards America in the 1800’s, transporting hundreds of terrified Africans who were fast approaching a life of brutal enslavement?
      Thomas: You emphasize ONLY. Does your God then have in addition to love, compassion and good deeds; hate, indifference and bad deeds?
      Ben: The God of the Bible promises that all evil will be vindicated and all tears will be dried. Though you may view striking down the firstborn of Egypt to be harsh, bear in mind that God was punishing the horrific evils committed by Egypt against the Hebrews, specifically continuing to harbor them as slaves against their wills.
      Thomas: Where was your God when the slave ships brought slaves to our shores? Are Hebrew slaves more important to Him than African slaves?

      Worldview
      We agree that that human beings (for the most part) are not absent love, compassion and hope. It works for both of us. Individuals can hold whatever belief they wish. I hope whatever belief that it is being held because it makes their life better, makes it easier to live a good life. It is when they band together with their belief and create a we-they situation with their worldview that trouble arises.

      For my world view I have to go back to my foundation, the circles. This may be difficult to grasp. I am living my life as if I were the only person and everything I perceive is a virtual reality. The beauty of this is that I am responsible for my happiness; if watching the nightly news upsets me, I should stop watching. If being kind to someone makes me feel good, I should be kind. It’s not always easy to figure out what is the best thing to do for my own selfish happiness. I sometimes say something to my wife that makes her unhappy and I have found that her unhappiness makes me unhappy so why on earth do I say something that I should know, after many years of living with her, will make me unhappy. I’m still learning. Don’t ask, “what if someone with my selfish view enjoyed hurting others” because I’m not espousing my view be taken by anyone else, can’t speak for anyone else, don’t understand people who hurt others.
      Now I’ll step out of the inner circle to the circle of perception in which we both live equally along with a lot of other folks. If a worldview is a view of what the world should be in my opinion, I think it should be a place where everyone accepts everyone or, as written in the New Testament everyone loves everyone. If a worldview is something that one should work toward attaining, my work is to love everyone I come in contact with and to live my life in a way that is based on love for everyone.

      • Hello Thomas, my old friend and comrade.

        1) I would say that as far as your circles go, the center circle should be “truth.” Before I even begin with what I “know”, I have to acknowledge that absolute truth does exist. Otherwise, even my “knowledge” is only an epistemological shot in the dark. In that case, it really wouldn’t matter if you or I accept that my wife loves me. Maybe she is putting on an elaborate ruse to trick me into believing that she does love me when in fact, she is looking to kill me and collect the large inheritance I would leave her. The TRUTH would be that she does not love me. Even if my friends and family all affirm that I have a very loving and devoted wife, they would all be wrong, because they are speaking untruth. My worldview begins with the admission that truth does exist. Perception of truth is secondary to “what is actually true”. The Catholic Church could deny Copernicus’ findings for 1,000 years – that wouldn’t change the fact that Copernicus’ research had revealed truth. So whether I deny evolution or not has no bearing on the reality (or lack thereof) of evolution. And the collective voice of every atheist on earth has no bearing on whether or not God actually exists.

        2) Short note – you said: “Perhaps the question should be ‘How many true Christians are there?’” I totally agree with you.

        3) You said: “As long as each of us holds our belief/faith as our own, important to our-self but recognized as not necessarily being important to anyone else, there is no problem. The problem arises when we feel others should hold the same belief and we take action to make that happen.” Well Thomas, that REALLY depends on what the belief is doesn’t it? If I believe that broccoli is the tastiest food on planet earth and so I force people at gunpoint to eat broccoli and scream at the top of their lungs that they have never tasted anything better, we would have some major problems. But now let’s consider another scenario, taken from the old Disney movie In Search of the Castaways. A group of people are sleeping in a tree – all except for one old man who has pitched a tent on the ground. During the night, their Native American guide hears the sound of an approaching flash flood, even though it has not been raining. He warns the people in the tree and then runs to the tent to awaken the old man. The guide then dashes off on a horse to get help. The old man puts his hand outside the tent, says “it’s not even raining” and goes back to sleep. The people in the tree can see the flood approaching and the old man’s son yells out “Father! Father!” But his cries are ignored. With the flood closing in rapidly, the son jumps from the tree and sprints to the tent, dragging his protesting father outside. It’s only when the old man sees that the wall of water is only 10 yards from him does he realize his peril and run with all his might to get to the tree. The point is that if the son had not forcibly removed his father from the tent, there would have been tragedy. Now this scenario more accurately paints the Biblical picture. Christians believe that there is a disaster looming in the future for every human: eternal, conscious torment in Hell, yet many (most) don’t accept this as true. Why would Christians not “feel others should hold the same belief and take action to make that happen”? Isn’t this the most loving thing we could do for humanity? Perhaps you object because in the second example, the people in the tree could actually see the flood and thus they had experiential knowledge, while Christians only believe that Hell exists. But, true Christians experience God and know Him to be trustworthy. Thus, when Hell is referenced in the Bible, we can know that the place actually exists and is most undesirable.

        4) My question still remains for your god of only love, compassion and good deeds: what does he/she do about all the evil committed by humanity? The Biblical God has love, compassion and good deeds…..as well as justice, righteous anger and wrath against sin. He is a God who punishes evil and holds the guilty responsible for their wrongdoing. Thus we see in the Bible that the flood (Genesis 6-8), Canaanite genocide (Deuteronomy 7), death of Uzzah (2 Samuel 6), calamity upon Israel (Amos 4) and the death of Ananias and his wife Sapphira (Acts 5) were all direct consequences of sin and evil. Would your god of only love, compassion and good deeds respond differently? Would there be no justice or punishment? And if not, why is your god worthy of worship, veneration or respect? AND, just so I’m not accused of question dodging, you ask: “Where was your God when the slave ships brought slaves to our shores?” The same place He is today: on His throne, ruling His universe in undisturbed majesty.

        5) Finally, worldviews. If I understand you correctly, you may not be able to comprehend why some people would hurt others, but you wouldn’t say that their path in life; their ultimate goal, is any less valid than your own. Have I represented you accurately? You talk about happiness. What if butchering another human makes someone happy? Should we judge or encourage them? A number of years ago, I watched a prison interview of serial killer Tommy Lynn Sells. It was absolutely unnerving as I listened to him describe how he achieved orgasmic-type pleasure when he eviscerated his victims. In fact, even during the interview, he had trouble articulating his words because he got so caught up in the memories. I could see on his face and in his actions, the euphoria he felt when he cut open another human being. Is that wrong? Is that right? You said that in your worldview, the world should be a place “where everyone accepts everyone”. Why? Why should everyone accept everyone? Why should we love everyone? Is your worldview morally superior to the worldview of Tommy Lynn Sells? On what basis? Do you exist in a worldview of total relativism where anything is right for anyone? Would you appeal to the Bible? But if you do, why reject so much of it while taking just the parts that you like?

        I’m tempted to assert that your worldview is inconsistent.

        • Response to 1. Ah, truth. A new word to deal with. Earth has never been the center of the universe no matter what the folks who wrote the Bible believed, no matter what the Pope and all others believed before Copernicus revealed the truth. Have I got you right? If so, I agree. Let’s go back to the folks before Copernicus and put ourselves in their shoes. In their lifetimes their world was the center of the universe. Did it matter that that wasn’t true, matter to them in their lives? Should it have? I certainly agree with your last sentence (actually the whole paragraph) that “the collective voice of every theist on earth has no bearing on whether or not God actually exists.” Oh, dear, I think I dropped the “a” before “theist”.
          Response to 3. If the Disney writers had been older, they probably would have had the old guy be right by having the wall of water be a figment of the imagination of the kids in the tree. Just kidding but a Disney analogy is amusing. I’m not trying to diminish your analogy. It is a good one. Going back to my circles, yes, you are right, if that is one’s perception then one should be doing what works for them. If I held that belief, then I should be going forth and spreading same wide and far because that would make me feel good. I don’t question what is going on in another’s reality. It is my life that I’m concerned with. I have come to realize that I am truly the only one I can change. I am interested in your experiential knowledge of God. Would you share that with me? I’m assuming it is something other than received through the Bible or religious teaching which, we agree, could be influenced by Satan.
          Response to 4.My god? Hmnm. I think you are trying to fit someone elses shoe on my foot. I live my life as if I am the only one who exists and all the rest is part of my life, whirls around me like a movie, a video game, a virtual reality. In my life I have found notions that help me live a good life. When I say I can’t believe in the notion of the god in the Bible that doesn’t mean I have another notion of a god in mind. When I asked where your god was when the slave ships brought slaves to our shores it was in response to the list of atrocities/evil your god punished in the name of justice. I wasn’t asking where he sat but rather why he didn’t wreak justice on the slave ship owners, captains, crew and all the rest of those evil people involved in slave trade. Seems like he sits on the sidelines for a lot of evil. Why do you find his spotty justice something so important in making him a god to be worshiped? Would I find a pacifist god worthy of worship, veneration and respect? Sure. Has your God’s justice, righteous anger and wrath against sin ended sin, ended wars, stopped genocide? You worship Him in spite of His shortfalls which is OK as long as it works for you and helps you to live a good life, a life in which you feel good about yourself.
          I’ve turned my response to #5 into a dialogue which I’ll put up as a new post.
          Good stuff to think about. Thanks.

          • I’ll be brief, because I’m very busy at the moment AND I want to spend more time on your separate dialogue post:

            3) “I am interested in your experiential knowledge of God. Would you share that with me?”

            I’ve heard His voice and have seen His power in the lives of people I know. I have also seen VERY specific answers to prayer and medical miracles. I realize that all 4 of these examples would be dismissed by the scientific method and I really don’t care. Science is not equipped to deal with the supernatural. Also, you said: “I’m assuming it is something other than received through the Bible or religious teaching which, we agree, could be influenced by Satan.” I think I’ve made it clear in past posts that while I’m open to exploring any hypothetical (such as you being a 19 year old girl named Samantha), I find no reason, basis or justification for believing that Satan is the author of the Bible, and thus, I don’t believe that he is the one influencing me, because it would be counter to his very nature as described in the Bible. So while YOU may believe this, please don’t include me in your fantastical theories.

            4) “Seems like he sits on the sidelines for a lot of evil. Why do you find his spotty justice something so important in making him a god to be worshiped?…”You worship Him in spite of His shortfalls which is OK as long as it works for you and helps you to live a good life, a life in which you feel good about yourself.””

            Spotty justice? How exactly did you attain a position so lofty in the universe that you can look down at the Almighty and accuse Him of spotty justice and shortfalls? I would challenge you to provide ANY objective standard (besides your own opinion) by which you can judge God’s morality.

            And I don’t worship God to make myself feel better. I worship Him because He is the only one worthy of worship.

          • Ben, I’m a writer and I choose my words carefully (not without error, I’m sure.) It will be helpful if you respond to what I actually write. I know that it is difficult to enter into my world from yours and apparently I’m having some trouble entering yours. I did not say you believed Satan wrote the Bible I wrote that we agree he could have written the Bible. On 11/7 you wrote: “I think we can put the original topic to rest. I’m fine with your conclusion: ‘Satan could have influenced the writing of the Bible…what is most important is that neither of us knows.’” You wrote that and it is a wonderful point of agreement. Of course, I have to add that neither of us knows God influenced the writing of the Bible When I write that I realize I am challenging your worldview that God wrote the Bible and that you know He did. If I am wrong in that sentence, if that is not the essence of your worldview, please correct me.
            You asked me to share with you my experiential knowledge of God. I have no experiential knowledge of the God in your worldview.
            In my world I begin with accepting the fact that I exist. It is difficult to imagine my existence without it having been created which implies there was a creator of me. I have no idea what shape or form my creator might have if any but I do know that I am here and I am terribly happy to be here experiencing this thing we call life. I experience beautiful sounds, sights, smells, tastes and feelings both physical and cerebral. This is a gift for which I am extremely grateful and when I experience a beautiful sunset, a warm body next to mine, the scent of a flower, the roar of the ocean and I can go on to include most moments in my waking life, I am grateful and I give thanks. I am thankful for you and our dialogue.

  7. Just some food for thought when talking about YHWH, or Yahweh: the very first instance of this name being applied to a deity is in an ancient Canaanite polytheistic sect. To them, Yahweh was the god of thunder, and possibly the god of war. This entity was just one of many who made up the Elohim, which were a collection of gods, similar to the Greek Pantheon.

  8. Also, to debate the historical accuracy of the bible is futile. Therefore, to debate it’s author or authors seems futile. The only thing for certain about the author(s) of the bible is that they wrote it at a specific time, for a specific people, and for a specific purpose. We, as intelligent as we suppose we are, can only speculate who and what those reason were. The relevance of the OT books today can be questioned, even though they do contain some moral highlights. If you begin again and start with Genesis with an unbiased frame of mind, and look at it as not quite fact, not quite fiction, but rather just a story that is more than likely a combination of the two, it all makes more sense. To say it’s fact begs for historical evidence, which can neither be proven or denied. To say it’s fiction means it contains no truth, which isn’t likely accurate either. We can all debate the ideas that are instituted in the bible and are the basis for the current religious denominations that poison the world today until we are blue in the face, and it all only serves to distract us from what’s really going on in our everyday world. We should try this: simply love one another and take care of one another. Isn’t that a radical idea!

  9. God said “This is my son in whom I am well pleased” (hm, if Jesus is God then God was complimenting himself). Jesus died on the cross for our sins ( that would mean that God died for our sins). Hmm, if A=B, and B=C, then A= C. This has always bothered me. So, basically in a nutshell, what the bible is actually saying is:”Look at Me, this is Me, I am proud of Me”, and I am going to send Me out into the world to save you from (you guessed it) ….ME!! um, something is NOT right! Something is NOT right. What kind of game is this?!

  10. i love it, its interesting that all the christians can quote is the bible as if thats proof enough, but wat if the soarce is tainted. even if the bible was written by god it was still edited buy man. for example look at christmas, its older than the birth of christ, it had nothing to do with christ until only 500 years ago. worship false gods much? been to christmas mass, if thats not a lie what is.
    christians are great fun, anything that falls out side of what they are told is true, must be a lie or the devil, convenient way to look at the world. god created me to think for myself so i am, a great read, regards scott

    • Thanks Scott. It is interesting that many fundamentalists Christians appear to be afraid to read anything other than the Bible. I can’t think it is fear their faith will be shaken but I welcome a better answer.

    • “Wat if the soarce is tainted”

      You have any evidence that the source was tainted – at least to the degree that you insinuate?

      BTW – you might want to invest in a good dictionary and grammar guide.

      • The source could have been tainted. That being said both the Quran and Bible could have been ingenious lies. Satan is the an expert manipulator. Talks down about himself while building up gods image, then installs contradictions. Giving off the impression that God will forgive you of your sins if you repent….. Even though you could have influenced someone else making them “Evil”. Contradictions make people think, God’s all loving yet let’s evil roam freely? If he does something to “purge” the evil he is no longer “All loving”. Leaving people to come to the conclusion that “we have to do gods work”. That… Can be dangerous, history has shown that. Now you have humans calling the shots, they determine what goes against THEIR God and take action…. Which causes pain and suffering for people not sharing the same belief….which is against “Love thy neighbor”. Anyways…. You get my drift.

  11. I loved your essay, it was very well writted. And I must say I am impressed with how you presented your theory from a biblical perspective, I personally have trouble communicating intelligently with people who believe what a book (inspired by “god” or not) written by MEN (if I wrote a book and had the foresight to put in the book that it was inspired by “god” would you believe it?) not to mention it was written thousands of years ago.
    What I liked most is that I came to the conclusion that the “god” of the Bible is Satan, but by different means (very little of which came from studying the bible).
    One thing that I believe to be true above all else is that I have free will, I am not a robot and if I were I would be doing this because I was predestined to and therefore I as I precieve myself do not in fact exist making everything irrelevant, so in my mind either I have free will or I don’t exist, which to me says I can safely assume I have free will. (sorry hard to put that into words).
    So in my mind there is 1 truth free will, so to me it is a pretty important part of my being so naturally I have spent countless hours pondering why?
    The only answer I have found is that we exist to experience and we experience to learn (in my opinion the most important thing to learn is the difference between good and evil, which is similar to a certain tree in a certain book that “god” told Adam and Eve was the one thing that they could not do).
    So the “god” of the Bible told his creations that the one thing they could not do was think for themselves and to learn and grow, which to me sounds a lot like “god” telling his creation to cease to exist, which I believe was what you said Satan’s goal was.
    Love to hear your opinion, and I apologize for the rambling I’m not gr
    eat at putting thoughts into words.

    • I think you did a fine job putting thoughts to words, Mitch. The more you put your thoughts in writing, the better you will become. You are right, of course, that the Bible was written by men a long time ago. Think about how much we have learned since then about the world and yet so many people are still stuck with the philosophy of living written over 2,000 years ago.
      Free will is a good thought to hold because it puts you at the center of your actions; you are responsible and I think personal responsibility is helpful in living a good life. Oh, gosh, now I have to define “good” which is really difficult. In this context I mean a life that is fulfilling. I like to think of life as a great gift and I like to think that the best thing I can do with this gift is to use it well. I’ve found that my goal should be my happiness which to some might seem shallow. However, I have also found that I am happiest when others around me are happy.
      This is complex stuff. As you can see I’m having trouble expressing myself also.
      I’m not sure I would say the most important thing to learn was the difference between good and evil. How about love? Let me know what you think of my essay on love.

  12. Hi Thomas and Ben I just spent the last 2 hours reading your conversation and I gotta say one of the most enjoyable reads I’ve had in a long time. I find it very interesting how similar your views are, in my opinion, but just a few tiny viewpoints makes a world of difference it’s fascinating. I have a question for both of you on something you both seem to agree on. You both talked about God’s judgment, or lack there of. How does punishing someone for something bad they have done help. To me vengeance is as evil as any of the other atrocities you have talked about, hate perpetuating hate. The Bible says “hate the sin love the sinner” or something close. Ben you said How exactly did you attain a position so lofty in the universe that you can look down at the Almighty and accuse Him of spotty justice and shortfalls?”. I ask you how did God attain a position so lofty in the universe that he can look down at me, homosexuals, atheists, people who chose to think for themselves, rapists or anyone? Wouldn’t mind your opinion as well Thomas. And 1 more thing the killing of the firstbornes in Egypt why would a loving God hurt innocents, sure he is hurting the parents too but I would think an omnipotent being that isn’t a blood-thirsty-son-of-somthing-that-isn’t-a-dog could come up with something that doesn’t involve killing babies.

    • Sorry one more thing (I’m having a thougtgasm right now) Thomas said Satan and God have both always existed, Ben said God created Satan. If God created Satan then wouldn’t God be the source of all evil?

  13. Hi Mitch. Since your post seems to pretty much be aimed at me, I’ll address each question you pose, though perhaps not to the degree that you may desire. And just a warning – my answers may frustrate you…

    1) “How does punishing someone for something bad they have done help.”
    It’s interesting that in the very next sentence, you use the word “vengeance”. Is this how you view God’s punishment in the Bible? It’s a bit odd that you would see it that way. The Bible teaches that God is a God of justice. As a holy God (Isaiah 6:5) who cannot be tempted by evil (James 1:13) sin must be dealt with; He will not leave the guilty unpunished (Exodus 34:7). Would you have respect for a judge who let every criminal walk free without consequences for their crime? God does not act in this way either. For further explanation on God’s justice, see this page – it sums it up well: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-of-justice.html.

    2) The Bible never says “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”

    3) “How did God attain a position so lofty in the universe that he can look down at me, homosexuals, atheists, people who chose to think for themselves, rapists or anyone?”
    He never attained the position – He has always held it (Psalm 90:2).

    4) “Why would a loving God hurt innocents.”
    The Bible teaches that no one is innocent (Romans 3:23). This ties in very nicely to my answer for #1.

    5) “If God created Satan then wouldn’t God be the source of all evil?”
    Ultimately yes, though He cannot be blamed for it. And I reject free-will – it’s completely illusory.

    So…Mitch, let me throw a few queries back at you:
    1) Do you believe that Yahweh exists? If not why?
    2) Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired words of Yahweh? If not why?
    3) What worldview do you identify most closely with?
    4) How well do you know the Bible and would you consider yourself somewhat knowledgeable in Biblical, systematic and philosophical theology?

    Cheers

  14. Hi there Thomas, (and Ben)

    wow, you and Ben have really been going back and forth here! I didn’t read most of your comments as I have my own beliefs, but I did read the story of this article and wanted to tell you what I’ve figured out-

    I’d love to see if Ben can prove me wrong here. I have never been able to find a Christian who can get through all of MY TOUGH questions! Ben seems pretty good so I’d like to challenge him to a few. I won’t go into too much detail right now, as I do this all the time and so I’m kind of burnt out on it, so i’ll just start with the basics!

    First let me tell you my beliefs, before I back them up….

    I believe that the Bible WAS written by Satan, (that’s how I found this website, by typing “Satan wrote the bible” into google) and I also believe that GOD IS SATAN. I don’t believe there are 2 separate entities. That is part of the deception and illusion. It’s called dualty. Please focus on all of my points at once so you can see through this deception Ben, that you are under. You have been placed under a “spell” by the evil bible. Please consider what I say below and let me know if you can prove me wrong!

    Point #1- GOD IS THE DEVIL AND THE DEVIL IS GOD. Since God wrote the bible, that means also that the Devil wrote the bible.

    Point #2- GOD is a pagan word. Jesus is a pagan word. Christianty is a pagan religon in that sense. So, the word GOD does not actually refer to our true creator (which I do believe in, I am not an atheist by any means….I simply see that religions are evil and actually keep people from knowing the truth, the creator)

    Point #3- The bible refers to “Jesus as saviour” now keep in mind names have been changed over the years, this supposed savior Jesus, was not named Jesus at all. His real name would of been Yahshua or something along those lines. But this “saviour” says “I am the truth and the life” which he is admitting in plain as day terms that the TRUE GOD(I hate using the word GOD as GOD is actually the EVIL as I told you before, but just to keep things simple I use it someimes, but from now on I will refer to the true GOD as savior or creator here in this article to keep things easy to understand. Calling the creator by the name of GOD is an insult anyway, since God is a pagan, evil word, which orginated from the word DOG) So the true CREATOR is saying that he is TRUTH AND LIFE. Plain and simple there. The TRUTH IS THE CREATOR

    Point #4- Since the DEVIL (god, Jesus, Zues, reptilains, demons etc) they’re all the same, remember what I said about duality, these are all the same evil entities working together to enslave us) But since the DEVIL (I will normally refer to as Devil or Satan in this article, even though Satan=Jesus=God=Zues, they’re all the same) But since the DEVIL is the father of lies, and the author of the bible, the devil will deceive us by MIXING TRUTH WITH LIES IN THE BIBLE. So there IS HALF TRUTHS IN THERE, which we must decode on our own. If we take it as face value, we are 100% absolutely guaranteed to be deceived, because most of it is not true. But infact I agree with the statement (half of it) that Jesus is the truth and the life. Really JESUS is not, but the CREATOR Is. and since People think Jesus is the creator, that is where the deception lies. Jesus didn’t create us. The creator did. Jesus actually = J-ZUES (Hey-ZUES) = ZUES= DEVIL so, no Jesus is not the truth. Jesus is the lie (Sorry I hope this all makes sense, because TRUTH CANNOT BE SPOKEN IN WORDS….it has to come from within so trying to explain truth like this is hard to do)

    Point #5- The bible says that “Satan is the author of confusion” (does it not?)

    Point #6- The Bible is a very confusing book, is it not? Of course it is, we can all agree on that. All you have to do to see that it is confusing is look among all the christians out there who debate among one another as to the true meaning of the scriptures. Some think Hell is torment of flames forever and ever. Others think it’s the grave, others think it’s temporary, etc. Not all christians agree! So there is your proof that the bible IS CONFUSING. And it is telling you plain as day SATAN IS THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. That means SATAN IS THE AUTHOR OF THE BIBLE 100% no way around this one.

    Point #7- The bible says MOST people will be decieved.

    Point #8- MOST people believe in religion! Over 80% of the world is religious and the TOP religion IS christianty! So, the bible(Devil) is telling you ONCE AGAIN in plain as day terms that you are being deceived if you believe in it.

    Point #9- The bible says we have free will to chose to be good or evil and that is why god allows us to go to Hell. In that case, if we have true free will, why didn’t god ask us first if we even wanted to be born or not? Or more rather, why does he only give us a lousy 2 options(Heaven or hell) after death? What if we DO NOT WANT to go to Heaven OR Hell? What if we just want to rest in peace or we want to explore the universe? Why are we FORCED to chose between 2 things we are not interested in? If we truly have free will, you’d figure we would get more than only 2 choices. (Now keep this “free will” in mind when you read the next point…all of this works together…to prove that the bible is lying to us and that it was written by “satan” or “zues” or whatever you wish to label these evil reptilain entities who control our world and our religions)

    Point #10- (Example) We have a family of 10 people. They all love each other very much, and only one of them believes in God, so all the others go to Hell, and let’s assume it was the Mother who believed in God and she goes to Heaven by her self, while he beloved sons and daughters and husband all go down to hell to suffer or to die

    (Whatever you happen to believe, again Christians argue about what Hell actually is. Later I will tell you what HELL REALLY IS with 100% proof if you can open your eyes to see…I have actually been to “Hell” it is all a state of our own minds, which has been PROVEN by NDE’s near death experiences….Not everyone experiences the same thing. Part of Satan’s evil trap is to make christians feel guilty, make them feel like they deserve hell and that they deserve to burn forever, if they dont repent their “sins” So, these poor souls are doomed to experience that hell or at the very least, reincarnation from the soul trap when they die. That bright white light we see when we die? It’s a soul trap. It’s a hologram of Heaven. That is why everyone has their own experiences. One little boy saw god as a large man with long arms (He was telling the truth, this is what he saw on his NDE) and another person saw god as a WOMAN! It’s all what you “Thought” god was, is what you will see. That is why they need YOUR BELIEFS for their trap to work. That is WHY they make the “Hell” threat, if you don’t believe. If you are a good person with a consious, you will know in your heart and soul that you do NOT deserve to go to Hell. Nobody deserves to burn forever anyway, that is just heinous.

    OK SORRY I got off track there for a minute. Like I said, it’s not easy to put your truth down into words, so I have to explain everything in detail so you guys can understand what I feel here.

    Ok so back to my point- We have the MOTHER in Heaven and all of her LOVED ones down in hell for all eternity. When asking a christian “How can this mother be happy in Heaven, while she knows full well that her loved ones are burning in hell and suffering excruciating agony forever and ever?” when you ask a christian that, they will quote the bible and say “God will wipe their tears away” (Meaning wipe away the tears of the mother in heaven)

    Now THAT is where the free will contradiction REALLY lies. That to me, is the show stopper, of how we can prove the bible wrong right there. The bible on one hand makes the excuse that God didn’t want his creation to be like ROBOTS so that’s why he allows them to chose hell if they want. But on the other hand, if you DO chose Heaven, now all of a sudden he takes away your free willl to be sad about your family?! He Wipes away your tears, which in essence is FORCING you to be happy against your own will. That is about as ROBOTIC as anything I can think of! That is downright changing someone’s emotions completely! I know I wouldn’t want to be happy with my family suffering forever! I don’t care HOW great Heaven is, or HOW great God is, I know that I love my family unconditionally, and I do NOT want some god controlling my emotions like that!

    OK well I’ll stop there for now, as I don’t want you to have to take in too much at once. Please read over what I wrote (Several times, if needed) so that you can understand each point and connect the dots here. I have not yet found even ONE christian who can address my points on Free will, and the contradictions of it in the bible that I just point out. And that is because it’s impossible to address. The only conclusion is that SATAN (Evil, God, Jesus, etc) WROTE THE BIBLE!!

    Now here’s the TRUTH-

    And Satan is just a name for “Adversary” there is no guy actually named satan but there ARE reptilain demons who control our world and our religions, they are called “The illuminati” by many people but they are not humans. They are alien demons from other universes which accidentally ended up here by a MISTAKE admitted by the TRUE CREATOR, who is GOOD. And We DO HAVE TRUE FREE WILL UNDER THE UNVIERSE so that is why these entities have duped and deceived us into AGREEING to suffer like this and AGREEING to come back here to be reincarnated over and over and over again, in the soul trap we meet at death.

    I can provide solid visual proof of reptilians existing, they have taken over all aspects of our world, including media, hollywood, government, sports, etc. They own all the wealth and power. They have no empathy. We live in the matrix, it’s all a sick game for them to feed from our souls like batteries. Maybe it is also a test for us to rise above this byLOVING ONE ANOTHER UNCONDITIONALLY and stop fighing each other. Humans are not bad, they are loving species. It’s the reptilians that have turned us into monsters by brainwashing and mind controlling us.

    Check out this video on youtube called 85 best reptilian shapeshifts of all time and watch all of it. It shows real footage of shapeshifters in hollywood. The guy who made the videos was targeted, all were deleted, and he had to start from scratch again and now nobody see the videos anymore. That is the only reason they havent deleted this one yet. It’s all TRUE! We’re under a spell by these reptilian and we need to break free and wake up ASAP or these evil prophecies, and raptures will keep playing out!! Look also into the ILLUMINATI CARD GAME all cards are coming true. It came out in 1995 and they also have a RAPTURE card, proving once again that they control all of the religions.

    I also found out today that, truth is something only available to those who DO NOT SIN, so if you are a sinner and havent been born again yet, nothing I just said will make sense to you. You have to have a conscious and most of us are born into ignorance and sin. I personally, went to hell at a young age (Hell is only temporary and nothing like what the bible says, unless thats what you BELIEVE..your mind is very powerful) but when I came back from my trip to hell I was cleansed of all sin and I have not sinned since. I only live by the true law on my heart and conscious now which resides within my soul

  15. Also there is ONE SIMPLE ONE to prove “Christianty” wrong and that is this-

    WHY Didn’t God write the bible himself? Or manifest it instantly with his infinite powers? Why would he need man to write it for him? I tried to find apologetics answer to this one, and not a single good answer can be found! That’s because it makes absolutely no sense for God to not write the bible himself. He knew in advance that most people would not trust something that MAN wrote. And he also knew the bible would be confusing as hell for people. If he had written it with his powers, he could of written it so that everyone would understand. God is either god, or he isn’t. It’s that simple.

    • Hello godISsatan,

      You said at the beginning: ” I won’t go into too much detail right now.” I’d love to see how much you write down when you DO go into detail………..that was an attempt at humor. Anyway, thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, I do not have the time, nor desire, to respond to every point you made (and you made a lot). I don’t have much interest in trying to prove you wrong either. Only God can open blinded eyes and replace hearts of stone with hearts of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). If you are interested in what I believe and what the Bible teaches (free-will is not taught in the Bible by the way), read my conversation with Thomas. I even address why I don’t believe Satan wrote the Bible, early on in our dialogue.

      I will respond to one thing. Your second post opened with this question: “WHY Didn’t God write the bible himself?” A strange inquiry indeed. 2,000 years of church history and church fathers have been nearly unanimous in their belief and affirmation that God is the author of the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 states quite clearly that ALL scripture is God-breathed. The author of Hebrews in chapter 1 quotes from various Old Testament passages written by different authors, yet he says that God was actually the one speaking. So according to the Bible, God wrote the Bible. Plain and simple.

      May you continue to find joy in demolishing the faith of Christians and proving them wrong…while never being proved wrong yourself (how convenient).

      -Ben-

  16. Hi!
    First of all……everyone needs to understand that there are two Realms of life, one being the Physical and the other Spiritual. The Spiritual life (world) was created way before the Physical one. I don’t believe that there was any need of a physical world before greed came into play. Once Corruption entered the perfect world, the Creator was left with no other choice but to separate Himself from all who where corrupted. This is where we come in to play….Satan at the beginning had all the power given to him as he was God’s right hand man, the problem was that for him power wasn’t enough he also wanted Control!!! It is absolutely impossible for two identities to be in control of one thing. That’s why He created Satan’s own world to give to him and his followers, just like everything in our world today is designed the way it is, one CEO per company……one Prime minister, one President and so on…..Because of Satan greed to be in control, we now find ourselves in this miserable world we live in. We are all here on earth because of our mistake of believing and following Satan in our pass Spiritual life. Adam and Eve were tested with the tree of knowledge because God wanted to see if they would again choose to follow the deceiver………and the answer is yes……Not only Adam & Eve but the whole world went astray again, we all love to follow the wicked one for some odd reason.

    To learn more follow us at thetruthbettold.ca

    • Hi Guy,
      It pains me that you think this world is miserable. I would like to think that this world is largely what we make of it; what we make in our minds. No matter how we may view this world, our life, it is our life, our world, the hand we are dealt. A card player plays the dealt hands to the best of their ability sometimes doing very well with poor cards. One may walk away at the end of a card game being grateful for good cards or being self congratulatory for playing well or miserable for playing badly. Accept the hand you are dealt, play it well and at the end, if there is a spiritual life beyond this one, you will be able to look back on this life with pride. If there is no “life” beyond this one, playing well while alive will, I assure you, be rewarding.

  17. Fascinating concept, Satan writing the Bible. I read about half the replies and just don’t have to time to read them all. Here’s something you may want to ponder. The various books of the Old and New Testaments have a variety of ‘authors’. But anyone who has studied the Bible, beyond the carefully crafted classes taught by believers, know that those who are credited with authorship of the books, aren’t necessarily the ones who actually wrote the books. Of the ones who did write them, some authors write about events they didn’t see first hand. For example: Moses is credited with writing Genesis. Let’s assume for a minute he was the actual author. How did he know the exact conversation between characters in the Garden of Eden? According to the Bible he was born many years later so he clearly wasn’t there. But Bible believers act as if Moses created an exact transcript of the event. Otherwise, why have your argument hinge on the exact words attributed to the characters? Posing that question to someone who believes every word in the Bible is true, I imagine the response would be that Moses’ pen was put to parchment, but God inspired / whispered the exact text into his ear / mind. Meaning Moses would have been taking dictation. Nowadays, the process of someone writing text that is not their own ideas, but ones being dictated to them through their mind are said to be using ‘automatic’ writing. And if you look up ‘automatic writing’ you will find many websites attributing such a practice with Satan. Oh when you deny the obvious and instead spin justifications so you can keep your beliefs in place, what a twisted web you weave. :-)

    • Justin,
      I approved your entry a month ago without comment. Just want you to know that I didn’t comment because I think what you wrote is right on and well put.

  18. The Question for one is not “Did Satan write the bible” But instead did he rewrite the bible?

    Keeping this SIMPLE …. assuming one here knows about the muratorian canon before the Vatican canon, and some what familiarization of the politics and the economy at the time of KJV version , (respectfully) The Tora 6 hundreds years before=(Judaism), and a bit more of Hinduism, Buddhism,=study and practice of the (kabbalah), gnostisym, Roman, and Greek mythology, and of course Satanism!
    Satanism because if the question is: “Did Satan write the bible?” What a ridiculous question to ask less one knows of Satans work!

    But I say on to you! if you ready to ask or study Satan wouldn’t you prefer to study and ask God first since they’re both there to keep your soul!

    The ONLY FACT that can be proven is that there has been an author in all of these subjects! And being that one ask these questions to seek fulfillment and everlasting understanding to give and BE meaning of life! There is None other than Jesus Christ that offers salvation!

    I do beg you to please know this one LAW which has been known to me!: We shall be what we practice!
    For when Jesus refers to treasure, he speaks of what we store up here on earth, in this case knowledge. And if we should “be” what we practice as the law says! Let us practice storing up knowledge in our heart! And let this knowledge be full of love!

    Now if it is true that the only fact that can be proven is that are authors of such subjects! Simply because it’s own writings exist.
    Then let it be known also that each and every being has his right to be his own author and that one KNOWS this! & let it be that one WRITES IT NOT OF SATAN But of JESUS CHRIST and be full!
    Therefore if one reads the Bible or any other subject and he finds it not to be the word of the Lord then move on and find that of the Lord that fills the and gives you the promise of salvation to be in heaven! Good luck!

    • Jose,
      You write “the only fact that can be proven is that there has been an author in all of these subjects!” Actually there were many authors of the Bible and the original writings have been edited, miss-copied and in some instances willfully changed not to mention translated. If I understand you, you believe God is the one and only author. One fact that can be proven is that no one knows if there is a god or many gods or no gods or Satans or no Satans.
      I respect your faith and urge you to hold onto it as long as you feel it necessary but if you believe God gave you your mind, open it and use it.

  19. What is so interesting about the issue of whether God is in fact Satan is that the issue is not new. The issue was raised as early as the first century A.D. But, those who raised the issue did so at their own peril. Heretics (those who dared to challenge dogma) and their writings, since the age of Constantine, have been obliterated. These martyrs receive no glory or mention in popular media of any age. They are removed. Do some research on this and start with Marcion of Sinope.
    Question: assuming some Christian doctrine to be true, what if the anti-christ was Hitler and those slaughtered by him “raptured” to heaven. That the creation of Israel was in fact the creation of the “new Jerusalem.” Could it be that we are the people left behind? Wouldn’t it be a brilliant sleight of hand for those remaining to be convinced that the predicted second coming hadn’t even yet occurred. Meanwhile, they go about their business building bigger churches, praying for material wealth, preaching peace while advancing war–all the while waiting for their savior to come as the Four Horsemen go about their happy task, unimpeded, of destroying what remains.
    Regardless of any truth we can discover on these topics, I say this boldly: if given the choice of spending eternity with the God of the Old Testament and burning forever in a lake of fire, I choose the fire. I will be damned if I am going to spend eternity with a Thing that creates a sensate/feeling being only to torture it forever in the fires of hell, to include women, children and all those miserables who by their own bad luck did not hear the “good news.”

    • By the way, I found this site too by exploring my suspicion that God is actually “satan” or, rather, the God of the Old Testament was defied by the historical Jesus (and likely many others, perhaps under different names). My conspiracy theory asks what evil genius it would be if Evil convinced others that Good is in fact of its own flesh and blood. It struck me as I passed a church sign that said “Jesus came to Earth to bring light to a dark world.” Wasn’t Lucifer also the angel of light? Didn’t Lucifer come to the same conclusions about daddy?

  20. I would like to start by saying I enjoyed the article and many good points have been made throughout and the debate in the comments was also enjoyed how every lengthy the posts may have been. I guess this isn’t pointed so much towards the essay as it is the comments more precisely Ben.

    I want to say I agree with you that free will is an illusion. My own reason for this is that I believe we are predetermined to make decisions based on our own individual life experiences and the influence of the world around us. You may have a different belief but at least we can agree that we both think it to be merely an illusion.

    Now with that in mind it leads me to one point you raised and I’ll quote

    “Yahweh is a God who punishes sin; a God who will (in the present and future) right ALL the wrongs committed by humans against humans. A God who will judge the world and “make all things new” (Revelation 21:5). You might not like a God who is committed to justice, but I’ll take Him over your god any day.”

    So I pose you this question. Why would God need to sit in judgment and serve justice to those who’s actions are all ready predetermined. In that sense some maybe even all of us (God’s children) are predisposed to sin and therefore destined to inherit God’s wrath or judgement if you will… it all seems so pointless. Am I to think God wants me to sin and punish me for it? Or on the other hand why are some made to sin and others not and then allowed an eternal life. On a side note if he is benevolent and all knowing why the need to test us if he knows the answers.

    I have no beliefs in a divine power but rather what brought me here is my desire to learn more about the many beliefs that are out there and how they can easily be distorted. Words be it written or spoken are all created by man and should no so strongly sway people’s lives. Keep an open mind and a open heart and you can never be led astray. Every good lie has nuggets of truth and it is on us to differentiate the two and that can never be done with closed eye which I believe to be the apotheosis of this article

    • Good thoughts, Glenn. I love your last paragraph so much I’m going to repeat it:
      “I have no beliefs in a divine power but rather what brought me here is my desire to learn more about the many beliefs that are out there and how they can easily be distorted. Words be it written or spoken are all created by man and should no so strongly sway people’s lives. Keep an open mind and a open heart and you can never be led astray. Every good lie has nuggets of truth and it is on us to differentiate the two and that can never be done with closed eyes.”

  21. There are so many fundamental flaws with your point of view, that I cant’e help but feel pity for you. Read the Diabolicon at least, then you will hopefully make a little more sence.

    • Sam3d Ha,Ha, your are being silly, I guess. Never heard of Diabolicon nor has Google. Your response is a laugh because if you were serious, you would point out at least one of the “fundamental flaws” you claim to see. Just spam but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt.

    • Sam3d, I will read more of the Diabolicon but my initial impression is that it is a belief. You are welcome to your belief just as theists are welcome to theirs and atheists are welcome to theirs. There is nothing wrong with any belief that does not hurt others but, bottom line, belief is belief not fact, not reality. There is no unquestionable proof there is a God or a Satan. I challenge you to point out just one of the fundamental flaws so we can have an interesting dialogue.

  22. interesting i have actually thought of this as a possibility myself about the bible . . . . i could never quite understand how an all-knowing God could set Adam and Eve up for failure like that, or do Job like that, or how the entity who supposedly controls everything and everything only happens by his will could only think of such a barbaric act as having his only son crucified to forgive us for our sins, why didn’t he just forgive us and call it a day?

  23. I would like to share with you, a research that took years from me until I have reached the weird truth, The God of the old testament is an evil God who made us (read Anunnaki stories by Zacharia Sitchin), and the supreme God the heavenly Father have sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ to come to this world in order to save us from this evil God and his angels, and help us escape his domain and free our spirits from the cycle of reincarnation and sufferings of our souls between one life time and another , who believes in Jesus will free his spirit from this world and will join our real God the heavenly Father, Jesus is not a myth, JESUS IS REAL and no one will be sure of that unless he experience Jesus in his life, I encountered Jesus in great miracles that happened in my life by his name. Anyone want to know the real truth hidden from us all? through centuries go and read the Gnostic gospels which were the geniune beliefs of the 1st century Christians, before the writings of the church first fathers who offended the gnostic Christians who were the real Christians and also these fathers, forged the whole truth in their writings, later Costantine representing Catholic church killed all people with gnostic faith and burned all their gospels everywhere and no one remained from them, until more than 50 gospels were discovered in Nag hammadi desert in Egypt 1945 buried in a jar underground, you can google Nag hammadi library, and enjoy reading the gnostic gospels and I recommend starting with Apochryphon of John, and for anyone who wants to know more, write to me and I will provide you with different book and researches made on this subject. Regards.

  24. Very much enjoyed your essay and totally agree. Thank you so much! Many years ago now I had an amazing, awakening experience, felt a presence that completely changed outlook on life, it was as if for a short while a self completely dropped off and I became one with that transcendent energy consciousness, all that is. That presence is still with me today – God isn’t a proper word for it and it is certainly nothing like anything “God” described in the Bible – Jesus does “refers” to it in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls – the one who knew that place “presence” or state of mind though, was the Buddha.

    Buddha also taught with everything, always question, always doubt, never believe what I say – discover and evaluate for yourself. True humility I think.

    The original “sin” is believing we are separate from God. We are not, all of us are connected, eternal, when we die we never go anywhere. Pretty lofty stuff, but I know from my own experience.

    Believe what you want, but “the kingdom of heaven is spread upon the earth, but man cannot see it –Jesus”. Think about that.

  25. Thomas, excellent article, Ben… I can’t believe no one notice you give yourself away right from the start, it took me 3 minutes. The very moment you mentioned the ecological “damage” humans have caused on the planet & mentioned the names of the old gods you pegged yourself as a Pagan… no pun intended.
    Whoever you work with; the “Anonymous” CIA team, The Freemasons, or the idiots who put on that hippie light show at the Vatican, you need more training, or brainwashing. Do you know who else was incredibly polite even while doing evil? Anton Lavey, founder of the Satanic Church & author of the Satanic Bible which is so uniquely similar to the “Holy Bible”.
    This is what I hear, Thomas: “I believe there is a possibility that Satan may have written the scriptures in The Bible.”
    Ben: “That’s the most idiotic, one sided, religious-fanatic’s comment I’ve ever heard, there’s no WAY you could EVER be right about that!!!”

    No, if I saw you as an Atheist, i would have chalked that banter up as a debate on religion, but simply by remaining neutral & observing, it’s plain as day, you’re either defending the bible, or you’re on Satan’s P.R. squad trying to make Thomas look and feel foolish & cover Satan’s hairy red ass, and because you claim to be an Athiest you have no reason to defend it… unless it were yours :)
    Isn’t that right, Mr. Before Christ?

  26. Sorry, I forgot to mention, I’m not the Mike from the earlier comments way back when, I just now found this site while searching for info on those Vatican lightshows… not sure why, but yeah…

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